Often when I do speak, the topic of discipline comes up. Many of the parents are shocked to learn that there is a huge difference in the discipline philosophies between a black house and white house. Speaking in generalities, I explain that in black homes the discipline is much stricter and the discipline in white homes in much more relaxed. The idea of “time outs” in the black home is non-existent and the thought of using the “time-out” approach in the black community is often met with a laugh.
Since I grew up in a white home and my wife grew up in a black home, I asked her what discipline looked like in her home. She confirmed that “time outs” weren’t even considered. The dynamics in her family were that orders were given and expected to be carried out and there was no room for debate or discussion.
In my home, rules were more like the lines in a parking lot. They were suggested but rarely enforced. We were free to debate the rules and discuss them. We didn’t even have time outs; that was too strict.
The differences in our two homes reflect the perceived discipline differences between the two cultures. These differences often play out in the grocery store… again. I have seen white children screaming down the aisle and no discipline was applied and I have seen black children attempt to step out of line and be quickly brought back in.
This big difference made me curious and so I asked my wife and a good friend of mine who is black why they thought the discipline in the black households was so strict and they both said the same thing. It was part of survival that has been passed down from generations. Black parents knew that if their children were to step out of line outside the home it could have meant death. A black person that spoke out against authority could easily be beaten or killed. Creating an environment where black children obeyed without questioning increased their chances of survival. This was passed down as common place.
Recently I spoke at a local college and this topic came up and the sociology professor agreed the explanation my wife and friend gave were accurate.
The sociology professor broadened the conversation even further by asking me how I thought that would impact a child’s ability to express themselves. Initially, I had no answer but then I sat and thought about it. Black children are often taught early on not to question authority, not to be inquisitive. White children are taught that they have an equal say in the matter and are often allowed to debate and ask questions.
So how could that play out in a class room?
The white kids are more apt to ask questions when they don’t understand and openly express themselves, while the black children are less likely to do so. Taking it one step further, it is possible that the black child who doesn’t ask questions is perceived as not engaged and uninterested. It could affect their grades because the black child who doesn’t understand is less likely to ask questions to gain an understanding.
Now how many teachers are taught about cultural differences and how those cultural differences can affect how a student learns and interacts? It is my opinion, that many teachers are taught to teach to the societal norm, and these cultural complexities don’t get taught nor do they figure in to analyzing behavior. Instead, what a child does is the focus instead of why the child does and many bright minds are being ignored and extinguished instead of cultivated.
Has my stream of consciousness gotten away from me? Am I linking too many unrelated things together? Could be or I could be right on. Either way, I think it’s important that we start to look at things differently as we expand this much needed conversation about race, culture, and our children.
I think you are probably on target. Most Black parents I know raise their kids the way they were raised, even though it can be a problem now. I actually read a study last year about this being a problem with words. Black children learned fewer words and had a much smaller vocabulary because of the inclination for them to be expected to sit quietly, and not talk, whereas the questions of the white kids were answered and encouraged.
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I think you are right on the money in this one. Our daughter is being raised in the time out, logigal consequences tradition of discipline, and is much more argumentative with us than her African American friends are with their parents. I have been aware that she seems less well mannered than those friends, and I also came to the same conclusion as you.
I was brought up Catholic in Northern Ireland in the just pre-civil rights era. I found that I was disciplined in the same way my African American friends were when they were kids.
Northern Irish Catholics were brought up to fear authority. My parents were even stricter with the boys than me. They were afraid of them being targets of the British soldiers if they were disrespectful to them when the soldiers stopped them in the streets and asked to search them. They were doubly afraid that the kids would join the IRA if they were abused by the British soldiers. I see big parallels between how African American parents raise their children and how I was raised, and the discipline methods were the same.
In school, the Catholic kids who were at state schools were second class citizens. They did not do as well as the Catholic kids who went to Catholic Schools.
However our parents raised us with the mantra that education is opportunity and you can be anything you want to be. And we had the big advantage that Mom was a teacher. So we did not hold back, or if we did, we checked it out with Mom after school.
What I find with my daughter is than when she is in school where most of the kids look like her, she is confident and playful and inquisitive. When she is in a serious minority, and the teacher does not look like her, she does not learn as well. She does not want to participate until she has mastery of the subject. She does not want to appear “dumb”. She would rather be thought of as lazy or defiant than “stupid”, which is how she viewed herself if she needed help in the classroom.
However, I am finding that the way teachers are trained to use differentiated instruction methods in classrooms and evaluate how the children are learning and reteach as they go through the year, all the children are responding to this.
Smaller class sizes and more teachers who look like you, and, to come right out and say it, more highly trained black men teaching the middle and high school black boys would also go a long way to addressing what is going on in our schools. Just one woman’s opinion.
Thanks for giving me a lot to think about.
Marnea
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Ma & Marie,
Thanks for the input. As in many things, there is give and take. I see great value in strict discipline, and respect but it has to be balanced with encouragement.
Marie, you are so on with the differences in reactions as a minority vs. part of the majority and I think that has huge implications as well.
As a minority who doesn’t feel recognized by the majority there comes this phenomenon called “not-learning.” In Herbert Kohl’s essay, “I Won’t Learn From You,” he describes this;
“Not-learning tends to take place when someone has to deal with unavoidable challenges to her or his personal and familiy loyalties, integrity, and identity. In such situations, there are forced choices and no apparent middle ground. To agree to learn from a stranger who does not respect your integrity causes a major loss of self. The only alternative is to not-learn and reject their world”
I can tell you first hand I did this in grade school. I had a very oppressive math teacher who made me feel “less than,” and my solution was to refuse to learn from him only hurting me in the end. Plus I walked away feeling “less then,” because I did so poorly and only proving to him what he thought that I wasn’t bright enough to get it. The unfortunate thing was I was bright enough and with the right encouragement I could have done so much better.
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My –purely anecdotal– experience suggests you’re right. For several years I did part-time tutoring. I was in my mid-20s at the time, but seemed much younger, and one of my strengths working with white kids (I’m white) was that they perceived me as an ally in their struggle with math (as opposed to an authority figure).
I was a much less effective tutor with black kids — I couldn’t figure out how to come across as anything but an authority figure. When I explained something and finished with, “Did that make sense?” they would nod, but then working through a problem set, it would become clear that I had failed to present the topic effectively — but they weren’t comfortable speaking up and telling me that.
The first time it happened, I thought I was working with a particularly shy kid — but it happened again and again, and eventually I spotted the pattern. These were “easy” clients — the kids were well-behaved kids whose parents were affluent enough to afford a private tutor — but because I was never able to break through and make a real connection, I don’t think I was much of a tutor. I regret that I never figured out an effective approach.
At the same time, I worry that a conversation like this can end up concluding, “White [middle class] people raise their kids better.” White parents have the luxury of raising their kids without the baggage of racism. The “keep your head down” strategy might not work in the classroom — but it might save a teenager’s life when he’s pulled over for driving-while-black. What needs to change isn’t the way black parents raise their kids, but the environment that makes it necessary for black parents to raise their kids defensively.
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Molly,
I couldn’t agree with you more. I am not saying the way black parents raise kids is wrong as I stated in my last comment and I was fearful to write this because I didn’t want people to walk away with that thought. I simply think we need to point out how such cultural differences can shape so many things and have a bigger than expected effect on kids. I think the quicker fix is to get the cultural training the teachers need to the teacher so they are better equipped address different cultures in the class room. It only takes that one teacher to take the time to see the potential in a child to change how that child performs in the classroom.
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Oh yeah, I definitely didn’t think you were suggesting that at all — I think conversations like this sometimes wind up moving that direction, but I know that’s not what you had in mind. And I agree these are important things that we -need- to talk about — we can modify teaching strategies a lot sooner than we can eradicate racism.
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Also Molly, my AA daughter is coming across as mouthy and bratty in comparison with her AA friends because I am not as tough a disciplinarian as my Mom.
Also Kevin, I want to get ahold of Herbert Kohl’s essay. Thanks.
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Marie,
Yes definitely it is a give/take situation. Generally white children are encouraged to be more expressive but also with that comes the tag of unruly and disrespectful. This is a very common stereotype in the black community about white children.
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Another great post! Thank you! I am a Canadian and Caucasian but I have noticed that there is a difference in the level of manners between African American and Caucasian American children. We were raised in typical Canadian fashion to be respectful, polite, and thoughtful to others. My parents rarely hit (spanked) us and to this day regret it. I think that there is a huge difference between fear and respect and that corporal punishment leads to fear. My parents used time-outs and took away privileges as a form of discipline and it worked! To this day, I have numerous people commenting on my polite manners in the U.S. and have been asked if my parents were strict. The answer is yes, but not in a fear based way. We asked questions and spoke up but never in a rude way. There is a middle ground where children can be taught that it is okay to ask and question adults if it is done with respect and courteousy…I am sad to see that this middle ground has not been found by many parents who see it as either one way where they give children complete “freedom of expression” or parents who stifle their children using fear and corporal punishment to keep them “in line.” Again, there is a middle ground- manners can be taught without making a child fearful of adults.
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This is an interesting post and I see the connections societally in much the same manner as you connect the dots.
The funny thing is that I parent in the “liberal” white way. LOL I am egads, an attachment parent, crunchy granola totally not authoritarian parent. Yet, I confess to all those differences with the knowledge that my kids, though they know they are free to share their feelings, their opinions and more generally are amazingly appropriate and polite when we are in social gatherings or out in public. I routinely receive compliments on all 4 of them. (one being on the autistic spectrum)
Also, in a total aside, in my work world the AA girls that I see often tend to be more assertive and outspoken than their same age AA male peers.
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I think those of us with “foreign” parents had stricter raising. I had a very strict upbringing. I don’t necessarily think it is a good thing or a bad thing.
I think there is a middle ground. Genuine questions of kids should be answered. For some parents it is about control. Kids also need to learn how to behave in different situations.
Some white kids could sure take a page from some of the Black kids, however, sometimes neither set of parents evaluate causation behind behavior. I think raising kids can be complex.
I also think that things seem to get more lenient as time goes by with white folks. And what is expected of kids in public vs say 1920’s or 1950s’ or 1970’s. Each generation is different.
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Hi Kevin,
I am new to your blog and want to tell you how much I appreciate your voice. I am a white mom to my African American daughter (of Ethiopian descent). She is in the pre-K class that is divided pretty evenly by race (including the teachers, one white, one AA). I have noticed that the other AA girls in the class exhibit better classroom discipline than my daughter. She does fine, but in the beginning struggled more to conform to classroom standards (sitting still, not calling out, etc). Fortunately they don’t require them to sit for long stretches of time (10 minutes max). They have a lot of “center” time to play and move and make noise. I do try to strike a balance — I don’t want her to be afraid to challenge authority but I don’t want to feel like she is always getting into trouble. She is very spirited and I love her spirit, but want her to learn how to manage it (I guess self-regulate).
I do remember hearing about the need to be strict disciplinarians in order to teach young AA children how to avoid being targeted or even killed. How do we challenge that model to encourage our children without painting an overly rosy picture of the world we are in now (which is far from rosy).
Thank you for your voice!
Jennifer
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You speak the truth! I will be writing a blog in the near future that talks about the world’s view of the minority and how important it is for the parents to counteract that view while being realistic.
You have to prepare them and explain why and build them up at the same time. The rules are the rules in this game we play and the better they know the rules the better off they will be. You teach them the rules may be flawed but you kids are not. If we don’t prepare them there is a chance the kids have an incident and walked away saying, “I am flawed.”
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I look forward to your blog. I agree with making sure that our children know they are not flawed, but that the rules are. I see this as the central framework of the civil rights movement. Sometimes it is more important to break the rules in order to challenge them, than to have people think we are “nice” people. That said, I don’t mean the rules of civil discourse that we all must learn to function in our world (home, classroom, church, work, etc). We are also Christians and I tell her and remind her that is created in the image and likeness of God and that everything God made is good and that includes her!
Thanks again for putting your “mind on paper”!
Jennifer
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This is such a timely post for me. One of my closest friends is black and we often get in debates over discipline style. She thinks my kids get away with too much and I think she is too hard on her kids. She uses the same explanation for discipline that you mentioned and I say that I want our home to be the place where my kids feel safe from too much criticism and harshness. We have agreed to disagree because our philosophies are so different from each other.
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This post is SO RIGHT ON. This is logical to me, Kevin, and I think it happens more often than not. I am somewhere in the middle as far as “strict vs. lenient”, but I do a LOT of “what do you think?” and “what happened here?” and “what are some other ways to handle it?” talking to all of my kids so that they are learning critical thinking skills to manage their behaviours. I do have a few areas where I just land and land hard because they are hot buttons for me…disrespectful tone, lack of gratitude, etc…non negotiable, we ain’t gonna visit about this one type stuff. HA
Meri
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Meri,
It is that dispectful tone and defiance that sends a lot of blacks reeling when they see that in white kids and especially in TRAs. Right or wrong, it’s important that TRA families understand how certain actions are viewed and why.
This comes up A LOT when I speak to blacks about TRA families, that and hair care which is another huge topic!
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yeah, I think I know what you are saying, Kevin…the different cultures of parenting are pretty divisive even in the same race! It is no wonder this can cause some issues for Blacks who are watching the TRA family with interest. My parenting values are pretty set in my faith and morals. I’ve talked to you before about how all things Black are not necessarily all things healthy and vice versa for sure. I’m open to dialogue about how I can be better, but I want to allow for societal growth and evolving enmeshment of parenting styles across color lines. I probably land harder on my kids than many folks these days…I imagine I am toward the strict end of the scale from what I notice around me, but maybe not quite as authoritarian as a Black home would be.
I have the hair care thing DOWN..at least I score high in that area! HA Was walking at a park a few years ago and passed a Black woman with three kids…2 of whom were girls. I could not believe how quickly she and I scanned each other’s girl’s hair and gave a nod. HA Never said a word about it, but we both knew what we were saying!
Please keep talking about all of this, Kevin…it is so important to hash out these things!
Meri
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I personally think it is extremely important, even if you are raising your child differently, to teach children how to respect their “culture of origin” and how to behave appropriately, especially around adults of this culture. (yes I realize that some of you have kids from Ethiopia etc, but they will be growing up in the American Black population (if you live in the U.S.) and will be viewed as such. It would go such a long way if you develop close ties in the African American community and develop “co parents” so your kids will get a sense of that discipline, and know what is expected of them. This will help them so much, not only as children, but also as adults. Yes, mixed neighborhoods and schools are important but having an African American adult that is a close “auntie” or so to your kids can adjust and fit in better.
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Millie,
GREAT COMMENT! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
That is what is so important about the discussions of cultures. The temptation is to judge it when the intention was to point out the differences and learn from them; get a better understanding of them.
Mixed neighborhoods and schools do us no good if we don’t take advantage of those amazing resources that are there; the people different from us.
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Yes, yes and yes! Since I grew up rather unusually at the time with my own African American aunties and uncles (teachers, friends, etc) I see this as really important for my daughter. You are right that if we have casual relationships that does us no good if we don’t have people over to our house, or go over to their houses and have real friendships. I grew up in California with a family that made sure this happened. Living in Boston (I hear the collective groan from the universe) this has been more difficult, but we have made it happen slowly but surely.
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I see this more clear now than I would have a few months ago. My DH & I are white and our children are black. We recently have been able to spend lots of time with my boys birthfamily. We’ve been told many times by their birthmom that our boys are not respectful to us. They are, but not where they say “yes, mama” or the likes. There is so much more to culture differences than mets the eye. It can be preceived as ‘wrong’ to someone who does not understand the ‘why’ or culture aspect to a situation. That has been an eye opener for me in recent months. The most simple conversation can mean something different depending on your upbringing. That’s why it is important to understand where people are coming from to effectively teach them.
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And another point a friend brought up that I wonder about…often Asian homes are quite strict as well. There is no questioning of authority there, and you follow the letter of the law..I mean, we’ve all seen the Tiger Mom thing that has been the buzz. So what is the difference here in teh classroom…? Asians are expected to succeed and don’t question authority, but Blacks are expected NOT to succceed hwen they don’t question?
There is obviously more to it than just a parenting model…so much history involved…
Meri
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a) It isn’t just the strictness. It is the expectation in the African American home that I see that kids are expected to be quiet, don’t bother adults, don’t ask questions etc in African American homes. Asian homes seem stricter in insisting on straight A’s, taking really hard classes, and playing at least one instrument (every kid except one at our church plays either violin or piano). There is a difference. And of course all homes are not alike- regardless of stereotypes.
b)More Asian parents (than either Black or White parents) signing kids up for extra academic training. Extra math classes, extra English classes etc. Even if they are doing well.
c) At the same time, I hate generalizations- in my little corner of the world, I see more Black families doing b) than White families. I also see lots of Black kids excelling. I think it is important to compare families who are equal i.e. middle class/upper class Black families ( who will still have the discipline factor but also can have money for extra activities for learning to reinforce even if kids have no trouble). Sadly, I often see Black families labeled and they pick out the teenage dads who leave or whatever. I see lots of Black dads out with their Black kids at the park every weekend. No one is writing about those dads. I think if you compare the kids of those dads… you will get better results.
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This post has kicked my parenting butt a bit. I’ve really contemplated my moves a lot more, and just last night made a stern reprimand during a disrespect moment that likely would not have been as forceful before. I just kept telling myself “you are doing him no favors by letting him get by with this..” He responded well, and the whole encounter was very healthy, not overly dramatic or anything. HA
Thanks for the reminder, Kevin, that holding our kids to a high standard is good stuff for their futures.
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Yesterday I was standing in line at a fast food joint about lunch time. I work in a vastly AA neighborhood so I was the only white person in there. This little boy about 5 or 6 years old was running around and being loud. A woman in line starts yelling at the boy’s mother about how she needs to whoop that boy’s butt and put him in line. The boy tells the woman to go “ef” herself. Everyone in the store went crazy. I felt sorry for the mother of the child because everyone was just vicious to her at that point. I made the mistake of saying, “Maybe she’s afraid of whooping him in public because she thinks someone will call 911 on her.” One woman said, “The only person who would call 911 on her for disciplining her child would be you, white girl.” I was so pi$$ed that she thought that I would call 911 just because I am white. I can understand why she thought that though. I just let it go and turned around and ordered my food. I thought it was so ironic that you just did this blog about differences in discipline amongst whites and blacks and I witnessed this a few days later.
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I have found the responses to this post very interesting. The post and the responses to it have caused me to reflect on my years growing up. Being Black raised in a home with two Black parents, my home and upbringing would fall right into the “generalization” as far as discipline is concerned. My parents were strict in the discipline department as was every other parent that I knew in my neighborhood. At no time in my life have I ever been afraid of my parents. I did not live a life of intimidation and I was never expected to live a silent existence. I have never had cause to question that they loved me totally and completely. I was however, raised to respect my parents and understand that they were my parents not my friends. Their job was to parent me and prepare me to live in and contribute to the world as a functioning, successful, and healthy adult.
As a child, if a group of adults were having a conversation that did not pertain to me, yes I would absolutely sit there quietly because as a child I was taught to respect that fact that I was not a peer in this group and was not going to be looked at as a peer with something of substance to add to the conversation. Was I expected to sit quietly at all times at home or in groups of my peers? Absolutely not, play, fun and everyday interactions happened daily and were encouraged. Now I will say that my parent’s word was the law and there was no room for negotiation. If I made a request and the answer was yes I was thrilled, but if the answer was no then I took my no and moved on. There was no asking why or pleading my case. I already knew the answer to the” why “question so why bother to ask? The answer was because they said no. I know many people will believe this is very arbitrary and unfair, that I should have had a voice, but again their job was to prepare my for the world I live in. Sometimes the answer is no and we have to deal with it. Now again I mention that I grew up knowing that my parents loved me and anything that they did or choose not to do or allow they were doing it because they felt that is what was best for me at that time. I was taught this and told this from the very beginning. Questioning the answer I received while being armed with this knowledge was and is considered disrespectful. Much like a private questioning the orders given by a commanding officer this is disrespectful and not allowed. This was again preparing me for life in all of its reality. I learned to self-regulate my emotions and self-sooth. If pulled over for driving while Black and I feel it’s unfair. I would not have the immediate gut reaction to say too much or go to far and put myself in jeopardy. Have the ability to look at the situation for what it is and keep moving.
Respect was paramount in our home. Talking back or getting “lippy”, questioning authority, acting out in public, or throwing tantrums just didn’t happen because these were my parents and I was taught to hold them in high regard just because of who they were. Now all of the talking back and other things probably didn’t happen too often because we had these discussions at home before these things ever happened. Or we would be in the store and see an episode between a parent and child and my mother would say, “Now you know that would not acceptable for you to do, right?” Of course I knew it was not. I remember the conversations before going into stores they would go something like this…”We are here to get food, not toys, not candy. I know you will probably see both toys and candy that you will want, but we are not here for that. Do not ask for any candy or any toys because you will not be getting them. Understand?” Of course both my brother and I understood, we didn’t ask, she didn’t have to say no, we didn’t get disappointed and there was no reason to have a grocery store tantrum. I remember my parents explaining to us why we would have these discussions and rules. They said that if a white child was having a tantrum because they didn’t get what they wanted in public people would continue to shop and walk right by, but if we were to do the same thing people would consider the little black children out of control. We would not be put in a situation that would give the world at large what they expected. We would be respectful and perfectly mannered.
I can definitely see how this upbringing and any other can play out to the negative in the classroom if the teachers are unfamiliar with the culture and background of the students they are teaching. I was fortunate that in my early years until the fourth grade all of my teachers were Black so they understood were we as students were coming from culturally. My elementary school was 100% Black for five of the seven years I attended there. I was also fortunate that failure in the classroom was also not an option in our home. When I had a Caucasian teacher for the first time, I remember being very quiet in class in a way that I had never been before. I’m sure I came across as a very shy child. I remember this teacher was someone who didn’t insist on making the class give assurance of understanding the way my previous teachers had. Whether or not I understood everything during class time or not my mother made sure I understood everything. She relentlessly went over my schoolwork. My brother and I were always the kids who had summer bridge workbooks to do all summer to prepare for the upcoming school year. We hated doing it, but of course we did not verbalize this to our parents. My parents explained that the world expected us not to succeed in school and again giving the world what they expected in that respect was not acceptable. Another life lesson, I had to do extra just to be considered equal.
Cultural difference recognition in education would in my opinion be beneficial for all students of all cultures. If one child can be reached that would’ve otherwise not been reached that is success. I agree that it only takes one teacher to change a way a child performs in the classroom. I had the fortune of having a fifth grade teacher who didn’t buy the shy kid routine and pushed me to do and express more. This teacher went out of her way to get our class to open up to her in a way that we were not accustomed to from Caucasian teachers. This was the first time I was able to perform the way I did when I was in the classroom of Black teachers just because that teacher made the effort to push and try to see past the standard teaching model.
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This is the way I was raised essentially. This is not the way I am raising my daughter. When I think of all the times she was right and I or my husband were wrong, then I am glad. So many times we would argue, and then in the end, she would be the one who was correct. My father never admitted he was wrong. He always had the last word. On the other hand, I think it has to be balanced with respect, for sure- which so many kids today lack totally.
I don’t think in our current culture, where one doesn’t have the back up of neighbors and friends (like it was when I was growin up, all neighbors disciplined kids and were on the same page), it is important to figure out what is going on with your child- and what they have to offer. There are so many issues that can be going on, and if you respond only with discpline, you may never be successful or figure out what is wrong.
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there are also cultural collisions in the classroom when it comes to the north and the south. I never would have thought so- but our northern rural ny family moved to southern va, from an all white school to a school with a population of 80% African American students and staff. My son was a sr. who had played football for 9 yrs. He was now only 1 of 2 white guys on the team. In the classroom he couldn’t understand the teachers due to their heavy accent and their fast speech, nor could he understand his team mates. He was not used to the absolute authority in the classroom where adults spoke and kids had no say, no discussion, and sadly quite often, received no respect. He was not used to using terms such as “Yes sir” or “No Ma’am” and was disrespectfully chided on a regular basis. His grades plummeted, he eventually quit the team and barely endured until graduation. He withdrew and falsely appeared to be a tough guy with an attitude, when really he was very scared and uncertain. We did not have racial issues before we moved and were naive to think things had progressed, but were shocked to find more racism in the school on the part of African American teachers. If he had a question, he was deemed a smart aleck, and not taken seriously. It was truly culture shock, and very frustrating.
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